Curse

Life Bringing · Aug 10, 2009, 02:23 AM // 02:23

Tbh, since all of you are complaining about UW being so easy, an SF nerf will do "nothing". Absolutely "nothing". Bars will be reverted to obby flesh tanks and times will still be ~25 minutes. See here.

Ugh · Aug 10, 2009, 02:31 AM // 02:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

Tbh, since all of you are complaining about UW being so easy, an SF nerf will do "nothing". Absolutely "nothing". Bars will be reverted to obby flesh tanks and times will still be ~25 minutes. See here.

That build also makes use of an SF sin.

And I'm kind of on the fence about an SF nerf. And by "on the fence," I mean Linsey said she didn't want to nerf it so too bad for me. :S

Quote:

Originally Posted by Me

I've changed my views from wanting an SF nerf (due to the fact that Linsey said she didn't want to nerf SF) to wanting an UWSC nerf. Changing gate mechanics, NPC behavior, or the addition of skills such as Leech Signet, Well of the Profane, and Signet of Humility might do nicely.

Life Bringing · Aug 10, 2009, 02:35 AM // 02:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

That build also makes use of an SF sin.

It depends what kind of SF nerf. If it's just reverted to before there were any buffs to it, the build will work fine because it relies on arcane echo to maintain SF.

Coney · Aug 10, 2009, 03:19 AM // 03:19

Without reading this thread I must state, I hate my sin and I hate SF. talk about milk-walking for free self-strokes.

_Nihilist_ · Aug 10, 2009, 03:44 AM // 03:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

...so the two-man 600/smite team is MORE POWERFUL and MORE ABUSABLE than a single or two-man SF team.

Now you try to divert the argument against Shadow Form maintainability by pointing out that it takes 16 skills and 2 players to run 600/Smite? Sometimes even 3 players for certain areas?

Stop trying to misdirect, please.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

There are basically no upsides to killing SF, and there are quite a bit of downsides. For one, it would close off UW and FOW to the large majority of players. It isn't easy to get a decent balanced team capable of completing UW HM. As it is now, anyone could easily make an assassin (or necro!) and get into UWSC in less than 10-20 hours flat.

First, it wouldn't close off UW and FoW to the large majority of players. Anyone can access UW and FoW. Just because they can't complete it in 20 minutes doesn't mean they don't have access to it.

Second, it might not be as easy to get a decent balanced team together, but you can find them. If SF wasn't around, more balanced teams would be going into both UW and FoW. Hell, even if it was to cause 600/Smite teams or 55/SS teams, or Obsidian Flesh teams to go back in, that's more variety than 7 SF Assassins and 1 Vale Monk or Necro.

Third, sure, anyone can make a Sin or a Necro and get into an UWSC, just not in equal numbers. Your argument is flawed, because the ratio is 7:1. If you don't want to make a Sin, or if you would rather play a Necro, you have less chance to get in because there isn't room for more than one Necro in the SC.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Ecto prices and high-end weapons prices would also skyrocket, making them and elite armor completely unattainable for most players.

Ecto prices when the game launched were ~13k/ea if what my friends who beta'd tell me are correct. Within a year of game release, before Factions had even hit shelves, Ecto was ~9k/ea. I mean, come on. Ecto has no higher than a 4% chance to drop from any Monster that can drop it. WHY SHOULD IT NOT BE EXPENSIVE?

And yeah, High-End Weapons and Elite Armor would be harder to get, but not unattainable. I played for almost 3 years before I bought my first set of Elite Armor. Not because I couldn't afford it, but because I had better things to spend my money on than armor that looked different, but functioned the same, as max AL Non-Elite Armor.

They are High-End/Rare/Elite for a reason. You earn them. They are NOT unattainable, they just take effort to get. That's like saying a McDonald's drive thru employee should be able to drive the same vehicle, have the same house, wear the same clothing and jewelry, and have the same posessions as a neurosurgeon easily. One says "Do you want to Super Size your Combo today?" while the other one has to treat and operate on the central nervous system of the human body. Which takes more effort? Which takes more research, training, and commitment? That's the one who earns more, because they have the more difficult task.

Life Bringing · Aug 10, 2009, 03:55 AM // 03:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong

Now you try to divert the argument against Shadow Form maintainability by pointing out that it takes 16 skills and 2 players to run 600/Smite? Sometimes even 3 players for certain areas?

Stop trying to misdirect, please.

And yet people make more money, faster with 600/smite, and can do more areas than sf.

Ghost Dog · Aug 10, 2009, 03:57 AM // 03:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

Tbh, since all of you are complaining about UW being so easy, an SF nerf will do "nothing". Absolutely "nothing". Bars will be reverted to obby flesh tanks and times will still be ~25 minutes. See here.

That build has SF and two ursans?

Life Bringing · Aug 10, 2009, 04:00 AM // 04:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost Dog

That build has SF and two ursans?

The SF build used echo to maintain, and you can come up with a better replacement for the 2 ursans?

Ghost Dog · Aug 10, 2009, 04:07 AM // 04:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

The SF build used echo to maintain, and you can come up with a better replacement for the 2 ursans?

Ok I'm done with this thread, the SF defenders aren't even reading.

_Nihilist_ · Aug 10, 2009, 04:07 AM // 04:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

And yet people make more money, faster with 600/smite, and can do more areas than sf.

600/Smite doesn't circumvent game mechanics to the extent of Shadow Form. Nor do all 600/Smite builds use Spell Breaker, which only grants targeted spell immunity, not immunity vs. attacks. And I've never seen a SF bar that requires two skillbars or more to work.

Life Bringing · Aug 10, 2009, 04:22 AM // 04:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost Dog

Ok I'm done with this thread, the SF defenders aren't even reading.

You're a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing autist.

Quote:

600/Smite doesn't circumvent game mechanics to the extent of Shadow Form. Nor do all 600/Smite builds use Spell Breaker, which only grants targeted spell immunity, not immunity vs. attacks. And I've never seen a SF bar that requires two skillbars or more to work.

Umm...
1
2
3
Now correct me if i'm wrong, but aren't these 3 random examples of things a perma sin can't do alone? A lone perma can't do deep, urgoz, fow, doa, or a variety of other areas solo either now could it?

superraptors · Aug 10, 2009, 04:28 AM // 04:28

sorry no normal people want to sit on the chair and spend 3hours + to clear an area, if you would like it i suggest wow

_Nihilist_ · Aug 10, 2009, 04:38 AM // 04:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by superraptors

sorry no normal people want to sit on the chair and spend 3hours + to clear an area, if you would like it i suggest wow

It doesn't take 3+ hours if you are willing to learn the area.

tuna-fish_sushi · Aug 10, 2009, 04:51 AM // 04:51

I enjoy and support SF and would like it to remain as is. It brings people together, as there isn't much worthwhile soloing with SF. It makes anet happy that people buy all the campaigns. Which is probably why they nerfed ursan but are letting SF stay.

However, @superraptors, sure no normal person wants to spend 3 hours clearing an area... but areas such as UW are an Elite Area and therefore are for the more hardcore players.

If there is a way that "normal" players can complete an Elite Area efficiently, they should be allowed to do it. Its not abusing anything, Anet knows full well how SF works and for now they are allowing it.

Sorry, to you hardcore/elite players who worked hard farming before SF to get all your FoW armors. But there should be a chance for the average player to get a chance to get rich and feel good.

AtomicMew · Aug 10, 2009, 07:37 AM // 07:37

Quote:

It's supposed to be that way. UW is an elite area and HM is Hard Mode. It wasn't meant for every average player to hop on in right off the boat from Cantha.

Call me elitist, but I feel high-end weapons/armor should be reserved for above average players.

You're an elitist.

First of all, barring a large part of the game from the majority of players is an insanely bad business decision and will never happen.

Secondly, this game is at an end, so there's no harm in letting players get cool items. There is just no benefit in nerfing SF to anybody, period.

If anything needs to be nerfed, it's the 600/smite dungeon runners making 100-200k per hour.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrael

First, it wouldn't close off UW and FoW to the large majority of players. Anyone can access UW and FoW. Just because they can't complete it in 20 minutes doesn't mean they don't have access to it.

Semantics.

Quote:

Third, sure, anyone can make a Sin or a Necro and get into an UWSC, just not in equal numbers. Your argument is flawed, because the ratio is 7:1. If you don't want to make a Sin, or if you would rather play a Necro, you have less chance to get in because there isn't room for more than one Necro in the SC.

My argument is flawed because there aren't as many slots for necros...? How is that even relevant? My argument was that anyone can make a new character and get into UWSC in less than 10-20 hours.

Quote:

Ecto prices when the game launched were ~13k/ea if what my friends who beta'd tell me are correct. Within a year of game release, before Factions had even hit shelves, Ecto was ~9k/ea. I mean, come on. Ecto has no higher than a 4% chance to drop from any Monster that can drop it. WHY SHOULD IT NOT BE EXPENSIVE?

And yeah, High-End Weapons and Elite Armor would be harder to get, but not unattainable. I played for almost 3 years before I bought my first set of Elite Armor. Not because I couldn't afford it, but because I had better things to spend my money on than armor that looked different, but functioned the same, as max AL Non-Elite Armor.

They are High-End/Rare/Elite for a reason.

Your argument is basically "QQ I spent so much time getting my FoW set, everyone should have to spend that much time too!" Sorry, but I'm unsympathetic. I see no benefit in making high end items difficult to obtain. I don't really care if more players have access to e-blades and FoW sets as it doesn't affect me. I don't see why anyone else should care either, unless, as previously mentioned, you are an elitist and want your FoW armor to represent bigger e-peen.

If that's the case, then I can truly say I do know where you're coming from. But let's be honest, it's a very shallow argument.

Rampage · Aug 10, 2009, 08:00 AM // 08:00

ITT: Bad players who cannot complete fairly easy areas without broken skills calling people who use common sense elitists.

It amazes me how horrible most of you are. <3

A11Eur0 · Aug 10, 2009, 08:14 AM // 08:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rampage

ITT: Bad players who cannot complete fairly easy areas without broken skills calling people who use common sense elitists.

It amazes me how horrible most of you are. <3

It amazes me how you can jump to such a conclusion based off of very little evidence that doesn't solely exist in your little mind.

We don't have to be bad players to defend something that has no need to be nerfed because it poses no non-economic threat to anyone who chooses not to use it. If it were able to be maintained in PvP again I'd agree that it would need to be nerfed...but that's not the case. it's PvE. Instanced PvE. Therefore, only the people using the skill and the people in that person's team are directly affected. If you feel that you can't get a group unless you use it...that's not their problem. It's not true, either...I always see people making groups for balanced through UW/FoW. I've gone along on some of those groups as well, and we completed....in 3 HOURS. Not much dying, just systematically going through the areas doing the quests. It wasn't a speed run, we weren't rushing, and we didn't have the most efficient team build and communication. Forming a better team with vent and better synergy would make it go faster, for sure, but once you streamline it enough it becomes just another gimmick build whether it uses SF or not.

In short, what people need to do is simply stop being concerned with how other people enjoy their game, and just focus on enjoying their own. Find like-minded people. Join groups. Get stuff done. Stop raging on people who like to do things differently. The only reason that should hurt you is if you wanted to stroke your e-peen with the most expensive, exclusive stuff possible. Go to WoW for that, because there's only so much "1337-ness" available in GW. The game is almost done, allow people to get what they want if they want it.

Unreal Havoc · Aug 10, 2009, 08:17 AM // 08:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

It isn't easy to get a decent balanced team capable of completing UW HM.

That's because people are all too busy abusing a ridiculous skill rather than learning how to actually play the area.

What's even sadder is the pure abuse someone can get just for even attempting to create a balanced team for UW HM.

Sadly with the general PuGs mindset this is something better left to Guild groups.

And people wonder why PuGs are so bad these days?

Jeydra · Aug 10, 2009, 08:23 AM // 08:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

You shouldn't be asking yourself if you can't get a non-SF group.
What you need to be asking yourself is if an area is possible without SF. If it's not - THEN players "playing" PvE can NOT ignore it. And in that case it does affect your gameplay.
What you are currently arguing though is that you can't "play" an area because every other player there is a farmer and they "farm" the area. While that is true, that's a simple observation on the state of the current PvE and not SF's fault.

Just think of it this way: you kill off SF and the people doing Thomy still won't take you in UNLESS you'll have a very specific build and class.
IF they'll still be farming that!

Thommis HM is accessible to competent players without Shadow Form. I can H/H it. For the not-so-good players, it's extremely difficult. I'm sitting in this (kinda bad) PvE alliance where the players were discussing the recent Thommis ZQ and commented how "fun" it will be.

That's not the point. You can't ignore the fact that no matter how you choose to do Thommis HM, you're doing it so much slower than someone can via VSF. Why would anyone spend an hour to do Thommis, possibly risking deaths and wipes, when they can finish in 10 minutes with VSF? Have you tried getting a team together to do Thommis HM without using SF?

If there were no SF, then you can get other human players. Thommis HM might be extremely difficult for not-so-good players, but - pardon the arrogance - for someone as accomplished as me at dealing with HM dungeons, I can compensate for subpar builds. A couple at least. I've gotten PuG teammates who don't have good builds or good heroes. Then I tell them to drop heroes and I bring henchmen. I don't have to ask them to change builds, but I can still finish [insert area].

If there were no SF, VSF will probably drop off the radar, and PuGs will probably move on to Obsidian tanking to do Slaver's HM. That's OK. Doing Duncan HM for example via Obsidian tanking isn't all that much faster (if it is faster at all) than doing it via balanced builds. If you can get players to trust you, you'll also be able to get people to do balanced with you. With SF however, nobody would want to balanced because it is simply so much faster with Shadow Form.

You write that these PuGs are "farming" and not "playing" PvE, which is why you can't find PuGs for anything other than SC. If you say this ... then you're wrong. I spend a fair bit of time doing Slaver's again and again and again, and sometimes when I pass by Umbral Grotto I see some lonely person going "LFG Forge" for example. Why would anyone want to farm Forge? Nobody would, this is "playing" PvE. Whenever there's a Thommis ZQ for example, you might see "Spirit spammer LFG Thommis". Do you think he's farming instead of playing? Before I learned to H/H Duncan HM, I would also pass by Umbral Grotto looking for a team to do it with. Again, "playing" PvE, not farming it. Groups exist, although they are rare. They were rare before SF. With the advent of SF though, it's gotten so hard to get a team, you might as well buy a run ... or teach yourself to H/H it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

And yet people make more money, faster with 600/smite, and can do more areas than sf.

600 / Smite is another build that I want nerfed. If nothing else, nerf till a real team can match its kill speed. After all, why bother about doing CoF the front way when you can just hire a runner, let the run pay off the cost, finish faster than you would otherwise and still be able to go AFK during the run?

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

There are basically no upsides to killing SF, and there are quite a bit of downsides. For one, it would close off UW and FOW to the large majority of players. It isn't easy to get a decent balanced team capable of completing UW HM. As it is now, anyone could easily make an assassin (or necro!) and get into UWSC in less than 10-20 hours flat.

Do you think SC is a good way of experiencing an area? If you do UWSC enough times, do you think you'll be able to form a balanced team to clear UW HM at first try? Anyone is capable of completing VSF if they roll an Echo RoJ or something, but if you ask them to take you through Thommis HM with 6 heroes + 2 humans, do you think they will manage without one of the humans playing Perma?

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

You're the accusers of the invincibility of SF: name me the areas that have absolutely zero counters to SF either in the form of PBAoE, signets, non-targeted enchantment removal(and no, I don't mean chilblains).

I'm sure I could come up with an area if I cared enough, but whatever - let's try a different question instead. Name me areas where the counters to SF actually exist in sufficient quantity / danger to actually kill you, through a Monk two aggro screens away casting Heal Party.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

In short, what people need to do is simply stop being concerned with how other people enjoy their game, and just focus on enjoying their own. Find like-minded people. Join groups. Get stuff done. Stop raging on people who like to do things differently. The only reason that should hurt you is if you wanted to stroke your e-penis with the most expensive, exclusive stuff possible. Go to WoW for that, because there's only so much "1337-ness" available in GW. The game is almost done, allow people to get what they want if they want it.

Good idea. Next time you go to Umbral Grotto, find 7 people willing to do Thommis HM without resorting to SF, and I'll agree it can be done. Far as I can see though, it can't.

upier · Aug 10, 2009, 10:27 AM // 10:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Thommis HM is accessible to competent players without Shadow Form. I can H/H it. For the not-so-good players, it's extremely difficult. I'm sitting in this (kinda bad) PvE alliance where the players were discussing the recent Thommis ZQ and commented how "fun" it will be.

That's not the point. You can't ignore the fact that no matter how you choose to do Thommis HM, you're doing it so much slower than someone can via VSF. Why would anyone spend an hour to do Thommis, possibly risking deaths and wipes, when they can finish in 10 minutes with VSF? Have you tried getting a team together to do Thommis HM without using SF?

If there were no SF, then you can get other human players. Thommis HM might be extremely difficult for not-so-good players, but - pardon the arrogance - for someone as accomplished as me at dealing with HM dungeons, I can compensate for subpar builds. A couple at least. I've gotten PuG teammates who don't have good builds or good heroes. Then I tell them to drop heroes and I bring henchmen. I don't have to ask them to change builds, but I can still finish [insert area].

If there were no SF, VSF will probably drop off the radar, and PuGs will probably move on to Obsidian tanking to do Slaver's HM. That's OK. Doing Duncan HM for example via Obsidian tanking isn't all that much faster (if it is faster at all) than doing it via balanced builds. If you can get players to trust you, you'll also be able to get people to do balanced with you. With SF however, nobody would want to balanced because it is simply so much faster with Shadow Form.

Ask yourself what the motivation behind "farming" PvE is.
And then ask yourself what the motivation behind "playing" PvE is.
What you are describing here equals "farming" PvE.

The problem is that farming completely took over PvE and we are pretty much unable to play the game for any other reason than maximizing our profit. Most of us farm PvE these days. I am currently having the BIGGEST issue playing an Inspirational Curser, despite this being probably my favourite combo in the game. And my problems with it do not come from the fact that I'd be unable to complete what I want - they come from the fact I am trained to believe that I should run something just because it's faster even though I don't enjoy it even remotely as much as I'd enjoy the above mentioned mesmer.
Simply put - why would you want to play something sub-par?
Because you'd be having fun. And the simple fact that you are not performing on the top level does not matter because the game is designed to allow people to win despite failing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You write that these PuGs are "farming" and not "playing" PvE, which is why you can't find PuGs for anything other than SC. If you say this ... then you're wrong. I spend a fair bit of time doing Slaver's again and again and again, and sometimes when I pass by Umbral Grotto I see some lonely person going "LFG Forge" for example. Why would anyone want to farm Forge? Nobody would, this is "playing" PvE. Whenever there's a Thommis ZQ for example, you might see "Spirit spammer LFG Thommis". Do you think he's farming instead of playing? Before I learned to H/H Duncan HM, I would also pass by Umbral Grotto looking for a team to do it with. Again, "playing" PvE, not farming it. Groups exist, although they are rare. They were rare before SF. With the advent of SF though, it's gotten so hard to get a team, you might as well buy a run ... or teach yourself to H/H it.

Except for the bolded part, which is in complete contradiction with everything else you posted in this quoted part, that's kinda exactly what I said.